Okay just to post our conversation which is a bit tl;dr but I don't want to retype some of this so please bare with me.
John at 12:37am July 3
"I think there's a lot of focus on fear, and I don't think that's a very Christian message..."
I find it funny how many non-Christians want to box in what is and isn't "very Christian like". But the second someone questions some of the "scientific theories" being taught as fact to our children in public schools, you are nothing more then a closed-minded fool who "attacks" others beliefs.
David Charlton at 3:48am July 3
That's because religion seems to be be immune from objective rationalization and critical thought. Why is everything else in the world subject to the laws of science and nature, yet when religion is brought up, it gets a free pass? It should be held to the same standard as any philosophical school of thought. To not do that is offensive to human intellect and only empowers the ignorant.
John at 4:23am July 3
I would agree with way of thinking. But to lump evolution into that argument and say that it is hard science makes me draw the line. When applying the “laws of science and nature... Read More” there are several major misconceptions about evolution that go beyond just theory.
Using natural processes alone, there’s just no explaining how a complex, single-celled life and its uniquely inherent and complex processes could have emerged from non-life in the first place, and then could continue deify the laws of science and nature with continued success until all complex varieties of life emerged.
And to say that there were just a lot of vast, immeasurable amounts of different “starting materials” from which life must have formed itself is just not enough. But maybe it is too big and complex to be explained by "Scientists" so it must be taken on faith which is a lot like...well you know.
David Charlton at 8:27pm July 3
Theory is by definition not hard science but essentially a best guess, and one that evolves as more facts are discovered or proven. Religious dogma does NOT change when new truths are revealed (unless they updated the Torah, Bible or Koran when I wasn't looking). Above you suggest that because we can't yet explain how life sprang from non-life that... Read More we have to summon an omnipotent being to explain it... that's not a real far cry from the sort of thinking that cavemen used to, for instance, explain the reasons for rain (after all, they didn't understand the cycle of precipitation yet WE know it isn't the tears of god). In time, science will be able to explain things we cannot fathom now, and I think we should have progressed to a point, as a people, where we can accept that. After all science has a pretty good track record at explaining the cosmos--- religion not so much.
As far as non-Christians defining Christian behavior, well, most of us were once Christians, so we should know!
I'm just going to ramble on a bit because, why not? I'm not very religious these days at all but like David, I used to be and at one point I went to church fairly regularly in both a Catholic church and one of those new-fangled Christian sect churches with like big stages and a soft rock band singing things like "Jesus helps me... Read More climb hight mountains".
However, I do agree with John (I think) in that what the scientists said is wrong, it's not very Christian-like to spread fear because that's almost the ENTIRETY of the Christian message. It's all about being afraid of shit afraid of doing shit that some guys who heard from god or one of god's friends who said it wasn't cool. The very first sin is all about, "Hey dude, don't eat that apple. Trust me, it's bad news." then he eats it and God is like, "Well see, now you all have to die. Sorry, that's the breaks." So to say it's that fear isn't a Christian message is just not true.
Damn it, I'm gonna run out of space.
Ramon Villalobos at 9:01pm July 3
So anyways, the thing that is different here is that scientists are constantly working to gain more understanding and find out how things work but with Christianity... it's just sort of there. In some cases, quite literally set in stone. So to hold the two camps to the same standard just isn't fair, on one hand you have a group of people who are ... Read Moretrying to find answers because there is a lot of knowledge left in the air and on the other a bunch of people who say they are right because it was written down a long time ago and have faith that in the last two thousand+ years there have been no real updates to their ideology. It's just a lazy science. It's like me saying I can tell you how a new Kirby vacuum cleaner runs because I have seen the instruction manual from one from the 1950's model except in this case, a more apt comparison would be for a broom in that when this instruction manual was written, electricity was not yet invented.
So yeah... I ran out of room again.
John at 11:37pm July 3
One of the things that bothers me the most is when people make a decision to believe in evolution and try to find “facts... Read More” to support it. By your own definition David, theory is a best guess. What you are asking is to believe in something and wait for the proof later. That is faith, and seems a far cry from science. I am not against scientists looking answers that open doors to vast possibilities. I encourage it. But do not say something is a fact and then look for the so-called proof later on. That’s like me saying I know man can fly of his own accord, but you will have to wait for scientists to unlock the genetic key that makes it happen. And anyone who dismisses that theory has their nose stuck in some ancient textbook.
John at 11:37pm July 3
And I never said that it had to be an omnipotent being. That was your conclusion. I would just like to know why people believe something came from nothing and except it is a truth, when so many other simpler truths are ignored. But you go on and say in time we will have the explanations. When is that ever an acceptable answer to such an important ... Read Morequestion like the creation of life? And to say that science has a pretty good track record of explaining the cosmos…ask Pluto how it feels about being downgraded. Lol.
And to say you can define all Christian behavior because you were once one, is really saying that everyone who shares something in common thinks, acts, and speaks the same way. Not a fair assessment there.
John at 11:38pm July 3
For example, just because I do not accept evolution, does not make me a religious person. That is a weak label and is really a cope-out insult thrown out there way too often. And too say that Christians are closed minded fear mongers is another weak label. Look at the “news... Read More” website this story came from. IT IS FULL OF NOTHING BUT FEAR AND DOOM. They have an agenda and they use it for the selfish purpose of forcing their agenda on others. That is simply not a fair representation of a media outlet. So to say that the entire Christian message is all about fear seems an extreme exaggeration. There are plenty of fear peddling, hateful people in the world who do not mask it with religion.
John at 11:40pm July 3
Not all people are good or bad. The world is full of both. Therefore, not all Christians and non-Christians alike can be lumped together in their own groups. Believe what you want to believe. As a Christian, I would never force anyone to except things on blind faith or box someone in because of their beliefs. I am a very open-minded person in all ... Read Moreareas of my life. I would challenge everyone to seek answers for themselves. Don’t let the media or anyone else make up your mind for you. It may force you to me more openminded and face some hard truths about others who think differently then you, but in the end it can only make you a stronger person.
Thanks for letting me rant on and on. It is always fun to have a non-hateful debate.
Ramon Villalobos at 2:06am July 4
Haha, well I'm not sure if you are or are not but I think you assume that I think ALL Christians, Muslims, whatever are bad people. I never said anything like that nor did I imply that you were any of those labels. The fact is that the primary motivation of being righteous in a christian religion is because of fear, the fear that a person might go ... Read Moreto hell makes them try their very best to not go around simultaneously plowing their fields with Ox and goats because bible says that it's wrong and if you do it, you go to hell. Of this point, I don't think I can be convinced otherwise and it's not because of lack of effort. It's just that at the very base level, that particular religion is every bit about not getting eternal punishment as it is getting eternal delights. For someone to say that they have a more sophisticated religious view because they cherry pick parts of they bible they do and don't agree with is hypocrisy. That may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater but so be it.
Ramon Villalobos at 2:15am July 4
To say that fear mongering in the bible is somehow more acceptable because it's sort of spread evenly across our culture does not make it any less wrong in my eyes. I did not say Christianity is responsible for all fear, I'm saying it is clearly responsible for some. Bush was president for two terms after all.
Yes, there is some faith and beliefs ... Read Moreinvolved in accepting science but it seems like far more of a stretch to believe in science than it does to believe that at one point in time a god impregnated a woman that gave birth to himself who then hung out for about twenty years before coming to the conclusion that he was god then saving all of mankind by having himself killed in a way that from most sane perspectives was beyond his control to prevent. I'm glad nothing escalated to an angry level as well. Kind of.
John at 3:36am July 4
There is no anger here on my end what so ever. Nor did I think you meant to imply anything about me personally. And if I made you angry in any way, it wasn... Read More’t my intention, and I am sorry. I was simply stating that there are good and bad people in the world regardless of what their views on religion may be. And I certainly don’t think I am a better person because I am more tolerant, accepting, and forgiving then the “media” says I should be. Because if the media didn’t have fear, hate, and hypocrisy to use as tools against people, no one would tune in.
John at 3:36am July 4
It does seem like there are a two separate issues here, one regarding the argument of evolution, and the other being the Christian religion. Obviously you have some deep-rooted issues with the bible and Christianity. And I certainly will not try and change your mind. I respect your position and feelings no matter how much they may differ from my ... Read Moreown. And I don’t need to convert others to strengthen my own beliefs. Though there are something’s you said that disturb me somewhat. I am not sure where you got the idea that being Christian makes you righteous. That is possibly the furthest from the truth. Being a Christian doesn’t make you better then anyone else, period. Again I won’t get into it here, but recognizing Gods love and forgiveness shouldn’t induce a sense of righteousness.
John at 3:36am July 4
Then there is your constant use of the word fear in regards to being a Christian. You said the entirety of the Christian message is based in fear. I am not sure why you feel this way but it is disturbing to say the least. You mention about cherry picking parts of the bible out is hypocrisy. I agree. But I think that applies both ways. The bible is ... Read Morefull of examples of love, hope, and forgiveness, which seems to be ignored when it’s convenient. There isn’t fear mongering in the bible. Fear, hatred, and intolerance, are used far too much in this world we live in and it should NEVER be accepted.
John at 3:44am July 4
You should never do (or not do) anything with fear as a motivation. It... Read More’s like a child no doing something wrong out of fear of what their wants might do if they found out. Do the right thing, because it’s the right thing without invoking a sense of righteousness either. It’s just like participation rewards for kids in schools these days. There shouldn’t be a reward for doing the right thing. Nor should you do the right thing because something bad may happen to you.
Maybe my views are off the wall and different then some of the Christians you have come across. And I know we share different views on this topic, as well as government. I just hope you know I mean no disrespect to you. Some if not most of my comments are generalizations and not directed at you personally.
Obviously I have some deep rooted issues, indeed.
Nah, it's cool I wasn't offended or anything. I think there are two separate issues though because SOMEONE turned it into a separate issue. Personally, I blame David. He's just a rabblerouser, that one. Even if I may not SOUND like I respect your opinion, I surely do.
The thing is though, fear is a fundamental part of the bible any way you cut it. The love and understanding is in there too, but at the end of the day, the book ends with the world ending, with a judgment day and if you aren't cool with god, you are fucked for eternity. And nobody wants that.
John at 3:58am July 4
Sure lets blame David. LOL. I agree that no matter what, there is a certain ammount of fear when it comes to life in general. The key is not to let that fear dictate the choices you make. That's what "they" want to do so they feel like "they" control you. We can talk about who "they" are elsewhere. I will take a look at the forum.
David Charlton at 10:49am July 4
Late getting back to the party, fellas, but (and not to gang up on John), I have to say that while I respect your soverign right to have daerly-held, culturally-transmitted and socially-acceptable beliefs, at the end of the day any belief based on faith is built on shaky foundations and people are slow to see that when it comes to religion, and why... Read More shouldn't that be challenged by critical thinking? Took me decades, man, and I was an altar boy!
Evolution makes more sense than Creation. There is evidence for evolution. There is no shame in a "best guess." Gravity is a theory, too, yet who assails that? There is NO empirical evidence for Creation. None. EVERYTHING about religion we are asked to take on faith. What is the virtue in blind belief? That's a slippery slope down a dangerous path.
We can teach our children good morals without resorting to fairy stories and the threat of everlasting damnation. Once we accept that, the letting go of ancient fears is easy.
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And that's we we left it this morning but I at some point in there asked if we could just move that conversation here because I didn't feel like losing my train of thought every couple seconds when I ran out of space to type and facebook gave me some shit. More in a sec, I don't want to keep this post running so long.