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Post by Motherfucking Awesome!! on Jun 11, 2009 16:02:43 GMT -5
Meltzer left him with shit! Vixen! Red Tornado! I do not give a flying shit about these characters. He could have done awesome stuff, but he kept getting shouted down. Meh, to each their own. Two words: Booster. Gold. Don't blame characters, blame the writers.
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Post by chocky on Jun 11, 2009 17:00:30 GMT -5
Uh... no. Editorial mandates should be expected with a book like JLA and it's McDuffie's fault for not ever making the title better than just okay. Yes, it's hard to work on a book that the editorial has such a big hand it but clearly McDuffie just couldn't cope to dealing with those kinds of changes and still making a comic that didn't bore the living shit out of people. You have to understand, just because he worked on a decent tv show doesn't mean his comics are going to be any good, the two are not the same thing. The problem is DC Editorial had control on that book completely. It didn't matter who had been writer. Yeah he got fired for being honest online so you could call him stupid for that but he's a perfect writer for JLA, the many great JL animated stories/seasons he's been involved with show this. Someone like Grant Morrison may be more diplomatic when editorial mess his stories around but we've heard similar things in the press from Rucka, Waid and countless others who were working for DC at the time. DC has made JLA a non-book, not McDuffie. He's had such a bad time with his hands being tied, not so much 'Superman is in a different costume with different powers' more like 'the character your plotting for is now dead' *McDuffie goes off and rewrites for this* 'OK now they're alive again' *McDuffie goes off and rewrites grave scene as a holodeck scene!* Sometimes we clearly see event overkill go wrong, like Countdown/Death of the New Gods stepping on Final Crisis, and Morrison being told to shoehorn Batman's death into Final Crisis while we're at it. What we are seeing with McDuffie dissatisfaction with JLA (and Dixon quitting DC, heck Ed Brubaker left DC citing similar issues) is editorial overkill going wrong. Saying that McDuffie was the wrong writer suggests that DC were looking for someone with ideas for stories for that book, seems to me like they were just looking for a caretaker for it. ***had to copy n paste this from t'other forum cos couldn't be arsed writing it again!*** JLA is kinda comprimised from the start, I don't know why they had to go and put Spidey and Wolverine in the Avengers as that kinda makes them fall into JLA's trap (i.e can't really have characters in the team do much original/creative as it would jar with thier own book). However Marvel seems to have been better at organizing things editorially as of late so it kinda works better there. Personally I wouldn't have the trinity in the JLA and allow the writers to tell better stories. That and tell Didio et al to just let the writer fucking write!
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Post by Ramon133 on Jun 11, 2009 17:15:26 GMT -5
Well, I think it would work better as an out of continuity title like Batman/Superman or the Confidential but the out of continuity stuff doesn't sell much and can't do tie ins to completely draw as much money out of it as it can being in continuity and with tie ins. That's the problem, DC is a company and the bottom line is, it can't just let the writer fucking write because it'd be doing a disservice to the mega conglomerate that owns it, know what I mean? I think JLA works in cycles where you can have the big seven come in, boost sales, get hype, all that good shit but then it falls into mediocrity... such as when McDuffie was writing it.
Regardless of DC dictating parts of the story, his big idea that he wanted to write more of was the Injustice Gang. Really? That's what he's got up his slave? It was so cliched by that point, and I believe it was even done within that incarnation of JLA and Teen Titans had a similar storyline going at the same time after similarly killing the evil version of superheroes concept. It was just boring, and uninteresting. In fact, just based on solicits alone, I can't think I've ever read one that sounded like there was a threat that even demanded my attention and when you are working with the JLA, that should never be the case. So I'm saying regardless of editorial mandate, McDuffie was frankly not that great of a writer. He may have done some good cartoon episodes, but those episodes are a product of a lot of people working together to make something good. Comics and cartoon shows are not the same, they are completely different mediums and his proficiency in one does not mean I am going to just hand him respect in the other, he had to earn that and I've never read an issue where he did that.
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Post by Will on Jun 11, 2009 18:12:51 GMT -5
JLA has just been on a horrible downward spiral. I mean it was once DC's top seller and now JSA is selling better.
The only thing that can save JLA is a huge creative team like the rumored Johns/Lee team with the big 7 staring in it.
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adumb
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by adumb on Jun 11, 2009 20:31:04 GMT -5
Evidently Johns is going on without Lee according to an old lying in the gutters post. If you look at history, JLA isn't going to get better without a reboot. I never read the original Justice Leauge of America during the Len Wein or Geroge Perez days but when they went to relaunch it after COIE, it was the Giffen/DeMatties relaunch and no creative team after that is really remembered (Jurgens came on a probably did a decent job writing and drawing it but I'm probably the only who wants to read that). When that volume shut down, the relaunch was with Morrison. There were okay stories after that but no one really remembers or cares about them since it was in between the lines of continuity and had no effect on anything. Sales dwindled and Infinite Crisis came. Perfect time for another relaunch! This time the problem is that Meltzer flubbed it and it dwindled off into the "no one cares and it's not effecting anything" realm after 12 issues. I think McDuffie was damned if he took the job but would regret it if he said no. Instead of busting out a box of creative in the first place and proving himself with the first story line, he decide to bitch to everyone else about editorial. The professional thing to do would have been bitch about editorial AFTER he left the gig. I say let Cry for Justice complete and then have Robinson take over the main book with his team with a list of rotating artists.
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Post by chocky on Jun 12, 2009 11:33:10 GMT -5
Well, I think it would work better as an out of continuity title like Batman/Superman or the Confidential but the out of continuity stuff doesn't sell much and can't do tie ins to completely draw as much money out of it as it can being in continuity and with tie ins. Agree 100% It's catch 22, to be free it needs to be in it's own continuity bubble but that would make less readers interested as nothing 'major' was happening in the book, just great stories. One place this did work well in was Loeb's Batman/Superman. We got Supergirl's introduction, Luthor getting kicked outta The White House and even stuff that didn't affect the other books was cool too like evil Bats/Supes arc w/Pacheco. So I'm saying regardless of editorial mandate, McDuffie was frankly not that great of a writer. He may have done some good cartoon episodes, but those episodes are a product of a lot of people working together to make something good. Comics and cartoon shows are not the same, they are completely different mediums and his proficiency in one does not mean I am going to just hand him respect in the other, he had to earn that and I've never read an issue where he did that. Obviously peopleare going to have different taste in writers, some'll likeMcDuffie and some won't, I wasn't too enthralled with the Injustice League arc (don't think I finished reading it tbh) but whatever you think of a writer it don't change that editorial will be wrecking thier stories on that book left right and centre. You mention cartoons being a team effort, unfortunately that's what JLA is as a comic, like you say very much business driven now. Imagine your the writer of JLA and you got it planned out, main characters, romances, twists etc for a couple years worth of stories. Now imagine DC taking certain characters away, telling you one is now dead, telling you (after re-write) that one is now alive again. Oh and can you please write books tying into events A and B during months X and Y. I know I said this above but actually imagine you spent time and creativity planning this shit out and every frickin week you had to account for Editorial's latest whims or ideas, all the while your gameplan going down the shitter. Like I said above, it's what Brubaker was citing when he left for Marvel. Let's be honest, DC editorial has even made Morrison's work suffer and lose form recently (come read Batman R.I.P where he doesn't actually die, that's another book kids!) Substitute McDuffie for any other writer and and you've still got the same main obsticle. I'm not gushing with respect or praise for McDuffie, I just hear him saying the same as Waid, Dixon, Brubaker, Rucka etc.
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Post by Will on Jun 17, 2009 21:44:18 GMT -5
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Post by Motherfucking Awesome!! on Jun 17, 2009 21:53:31 GMT -5
LOL.
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Post by chocky on Jun 18, 2009 11:59:33 GMT -5
That cartoon sums it up perfectly! ;D
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adumb
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by adumb on Jun 18, 2009 12:31:52 GMT -5
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Post by Will on Jun 18, 2009 12:52:38 GMT -5
I like how the Newsarama blog, blogs what DC blogs.
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Post by Motherfucking Awesome!! on Jun 18, 2009 14:54:01 GMT -5
I've dropped the JLA book, but we'll see what happens post Cry for Justice and Blackest Night what happens. If Dick joins the team as the new Batman then I'm on board.
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Post by Stubacca on Jun 19, 2009 7:21:40 GMT -5
Yes, if Dick indeed joins as Batman it would definately get me interested in the JLA again. But I'd probably read the book anyway if it was written by Geoff Johns.
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Post by Will on Jun 19, 2009 8:14:02 GMT -5
Well the new creative team has got me pretty excited. Bagely is going from a for issue Batman arc to drawing JLA so he seems to be getting the spotlight. also no delays should happen from slow art.
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Post by Motherfucking Awesome!! on Jun 19, 2009 15:21:48 GMT -5
also no delays should happen from slow art. This really hasn't been a problem for JLA, because they can just throw substandard artists on the book and act like its ok. I can handle Benes ok but some of the inks on his stuff early on looked like it had been done by a sharpie. Then some of the fill in guys I've never heard of. Shane Davis did issues #7 and #31, Gene Ha did issue #10, EVS did #20 and Pacheco did #21. Thats really it for good art work on JLA, so I welcome Bagley on the book. I miss reading JLA.
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